Multiple ATA drives in a file server

aserpent · Post by **aserpent** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:50 am

Hello.

*This is just intro information; I do have actual questions, and they may be found listed at the bottom of this post if you wish to skip formalities.

. . .I've recently begun the project of creating a file server for my personal files at home. I'm doing this for a variety of reasons; the two most important of those are that I have the peculiar taste to collect myraid huge sets of files (I like to collect Linux distro ISOs, for instance) and that I desire the portability and security of storing my data on a system other than my main box.

. . .I've also just been given a computer that sports an Abit BP6 motherboard. My tasks, then, are as follows:
. . .I'd like to turn this box into my file server. I've got 6 120GB WD drives, one 2 GB Quantum drive (my system drive), and a stray 160GB drive of which to take care. I'm not to interested in RAID just yet (I want to begin the task of backing everything up to DVD before I take the risk of losing data during the time it takes me to get used to the RAID setup). I'm planning on running this as a Fedora (or RedHat x.x) FTP(/NFS, possibly) server and nothing else.
. . .I thought that the Abit motherboard would be perfect for my situation; eight drives, four IDE controllers. I have, however, read comments on the IDE3+4 controllers, and I think I may wish to purchase an external card for four of my drives.

. . .My questions and requests are thus:
*. . .I've never handled this number of drives in a single case at once. I sit here and look at seven of them lined up vertically in my case and imagine an oven conviniently running next to my desk. I'm considering two 80mm fans blowing directly on the drives from the front of the case, and four 80mm (or 2 120mm) fans drawing air directly from the drives and directing it elsewhere inside of the case. Am I not giving the issue of heat enough consideration?
*. . .I've never actually purchased technology on Ebay. Is it worth it to attempt to find an ATA controller card cheaply second-hand, or should I just give that up now and purchase a new Promise controller?
*. . .Are there any BIOS issues that I should research before expecting this number of drives to be recognized and to work?
*. . .I've got a 450W power supply in the case at the moment; it's branded EchoStar. Will this likely need more power (8hd, 6-12 fans, 2 CPUs, 1 graphics, 1 ethernet, 32MB RAM module), a more stable power supply, or am I in good shape?
*. . .Am I missing anything else that seems important? I really don't want to lose any of the drives (or the motherboard) if it's at all possible, but I would like this to work out. I'm not mechanicly minded (or -handed), but I'm fairly persistent and willing to research and work around problems if it's necessary. I'm comfortable enough with Linux to (again) do research if it becomes necessary.

I am grateful for any suggestions or issues you may offer me.
Thank you.
David

davd_bob · Post by **davd_bob** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:02 am

When you say the 2gb is your system drive...you don't mean your os is loading and working off that pathetic slow drive when you have those really fast 120gifs?

WOW Kuun, looks like we have nearly a 1TB winner here.

BCN · Post by **BCN** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:34 am

just really forget about 2Gig drive being your sys drive

Forget about the HPT controller.

then you need to get controller cards, you would suffice with two simple of them, which can handle 4 drives each. you could go 8-th way with drives on cotroller card fi you have cash

there would be no problemns with recognising your drives.

though the PSU.... I would advise to look if it has at least 8-10 connectors for drives. if it has, you should be OK, if it has only 4, then I advice trying putting it tigether and trying for powering up and stability....

it would just not power, no life sign, if it is short of power to supply

then if you like, try dual ATX power supplies - you just get an Y-shape ATX cable for connecting both of them to your mobo and you are done, besides if one of them would fail, you would always have the other to give that difference in amperage.
I have done that in crude way: cutting and splicing ATX cables of 2 250W units some 2 years ago

worked great actually, even when one of them died during working - noted the 3.3 dropping to its single puny 200W PSU equivalent... then I just went directly to 525W HEAVY PSU with LOTS of LONG cables.

For example my 400W unit would not boot with P4 system (it had only 4 connectors for drives) - so it was not actual 400W.... ah... wasted money

Dave Rave · Post by **Dave Rave** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:49 am

the os on a 2gb is fine. the os / system does sod all once loaded

don't use the bp6 secondary hpt as it's known to be a dud
data on a secondary controller is fine and a good thing.
if the OS partition goes bye bye the data is still ok
you will need one (two) ide controllers to handle 7 drives.

Dave Rave · Post by **Dave Rave** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:11 am

250w is fine for a mboard vga nic and hdd
450 should be ok for JBOD

aserpent · Post by **aserpent** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:43 am

Davd_bob, yes, I do mean the 2gb is my system drive. The first incarnation of this server worked well with it... My thinking is that since it only really needs to load a kernel and a FTP daemon (with a few logging processes and some others I'm not quite sure how to remove yet), there shouldn't be the need to access that particular drive that often. I am, however, planning to play tests with this server as soon as I've suitable backups prepared; I shall try a faster drive and see if I can produce worthy performance gains.
. . .The total is 120*5 + 160= 760GB 707 actual (I wish I had the extra eight gigabytes. I really do). I was, in fact, going for a terabyte, and if I can make my current plans work, I believe that I will. I've never owned a case this large (19.5"x24"x8") and it's fun looking at that stack of drives. Computers are wonderful works of art; if I could get rid of that awful graphics card, I believe I might even call the BP6 itself beautiful.

BCN, see my notes above about the system drive. I will perform tests with your comment in mind.
. . .I was planning on using at least the first controller on the motherboard for drives. This is, admittedly, mainly for cost; so far I've spent about twenty dollars on this case specifically; I'm hoping to keep the cost of this down at first to that of a few movies so that I may file it under "entertainment" in my finances. Is the first controller unstable? My thoughts were to place the system drive and the odd 160GB drive on one channel, and place two of the 120gbs on the other and have those mirror one another. That would provide me with some secure storage and justify the slower speed (in my mind, at the very least). If the controller is unreliable, however, I would indeed feel rather queasy sacrificing any drive but my system drive to it.
. . .As for the power supply, I shamefacedly admit that I cheaped out on it for the cost reason I supplied above. It only has four large molex connectors; (although two smalls; does anyone still use two floppy drives [or even one] willingly?) my intentions were to abuse extendors heavily. Might this cause problems?
. . .Have you any directions that I may follow to find information on using dual power supplies? I'm certainly willing to give it a try if my current plan does not or will not work. I do have room and a place for the second unit, although perhaps not the skills to make openings for it. Would dual power supplies cause heat issues if they were aligned vertically?

Dave Rave, I have definitely decided to ditch the secondary controller. A pity, too; I thought I would get away without any additional expansion cards. I'm certainly not looking at a situation in which I would desire the speed benefits of eight channels; if I were willing to spend that much money and time but unwilling to stripe and mirror all of the drives, I do believe that I would deserve to be hung with some of my IDE cables.
. . .My concerns with the power supply mainly had to do with its reliability. Do you know of any of the effects an unreliable power supply might have on the drives beyond the obvious effects simple failure would entail?

Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate your time and words very much.
David

purrkur · Post by **purrkur** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:48 am

Just a quick question to all posting: I have read on several occasions how the HPT controller isn't worth working with, but is that true under Linux as well? I can only remember Windows people complaining of how things do not work well with it but I can't remember anybody complaining about it under Linux.

So the question is, does it work just as badly under Linux?

Dave Rave · Post by **Dave Rave** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:53 am

I think it winds down in effectuality
in effect, it doesn't work properly.
sounds like a combination of it fails plus the drivers aren't the best.
not sure if the drivers work the hdd badly or it's the failure of the controller that will kill the hdd's.

either way, all suggestions to not using it say get a pci based add-in card and DON'T use the onboard.
after all that, I've never used mine, but they always seem to be working if I experiment.

watch out for PP / RU bios and later cos the HPT bios will change from 1.22 to 1.25 and I've never seen mention about whether the 1.22 driver on a 1.25 bios or vice versa will do damage as well

purrkur · Post by **purrkur** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:08 am

I think it winds down in effectuality
in effect, it doesn't work properly.

From what I have seen, there is documentation about how to use it is pretty strict. Is it possible that problems have occured when not following those guidelines (i.e. incorrect usage)?

Hmmm. I think I should try this myself. I got a drive around that I can sacrifice if something bad happens to it.

davd_bob · Post by **davd_bob** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:07 am

purrker,
go for it. looks like a split field on the "WORKS vs DOESN'T WORK" people. My 14 year old likes to hack and has cratered my BP6 twice in 4 months forcing me to reformat and reinstall from scratch. So far Im a Windows cripple only. I might as well switch to the evil'66 for the 25% speed increas i would get cause that girl will probably make sure the Hotpoint doesn't get a chance to do any damage.

BTW are you also a David?
do we need to have a thread for davids only?

purrkur · Post by **purrkur** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:49 am

Davd_bob: Yeah, I am also a David

Whats up with all those Davids owning a BP6? I suggest a thread called "BP6 owners called David" or something like that

I am going to add a drive to the HPT next time I open up my box. I got a 12 mb drive just lying around so it will be fun to test it out under Linux.

BCN · Post by **BCN** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:48 am

for abusing extendors... try it and you will see how far your PSU will go

- no harm though. It should just switch off or not power at all if overloaded.

as of dual power supplies - they work perfect. I have spliced ATX cables (I just did not have the finances to by an Y cable for them at that time) instead of just powering one through the other (there you connect only 2 wires I guess), as that way I would get the load shared between the two for averything

I have put power suplies one ontop another with silicone - 6 big dots or 2 lines on one, the same on the other, you stick them together, put 2 pencils in between for spacing and after it dries you have vibration-prof junction!

davd_bob · Post by **davd_bob** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:55 am

BNC,
your not a david(or are you really one on the inside)

Dave Rave · Post by **Dave Rave** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:27 am

I like the question of the HPT under linux....
did anyone who has experienced got a feeling....
is it the hpt and windows drivers causing the dead drives and problems
or the hpt controller all by itself....

might the linux version be better and not problematical (damn, that's twice I've used that word this week)

hyperspace · Post by **hyperspace** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:18 pm

Dave Rave wrote:I like the question of the HPT under linux....
did anyone who has experienced got a feeling....
is it the hpt and windows drivers causing the dead drives and problems
or the hpt controller all by itself....

might the linux version be better and not problematical (damn, that's twice I've used that word this week)

I've used the same drive on the HPT3666 controller since August 1999. Both in Windows and Linux. Have transferred multiple gigs from this drive to a local SCSI drive and across my LAN to another HPT3666 controlled drive on another BP6. Have never seen any problems.

The main difference with my BP6s and others who use the HPT366 controller on a BP6; I boot from an Adaptec SCSI controlled drive. My HPT3666 controlled drives, are for DATA storage and SWAP/PAGE directory/file. Not saying this is the solution to the HPT3666 controller problems but may be one way of utilizing the on-board controller.

purrkur · Post by **purrkur** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:04 pm

Thanks for your answer Hyperspace, that was just my line of thinking. The specifications I have seen for the HPT have been pretty strict: The harddrive should be using the same interface standards (in terms of speed) and that nothing except harddrives should be used. Who knows, it may be sensitive to overclocking as well!

Dave Rave · Post by **Dave Rave** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:29 pm

also, my boards haven't died.
as in, only one has 'needed' the ec10 mod
but it has a broken cpu socket heat sensor.
my other boards run as wide as 1.37 - 1.63 on the VTT line. (?!?!)

maybe in Aust I've been lucky and others are having probs with USA 110v PSU s ??
it might be an HPT thing
or a way you are using it....
the driver if using it badly
local power conditions ? the USA is one big happy country but it seems to be 2-300 little areas of local control by local companies. so if the power company isn't delivering good quality power, maybe ....

we have 240v 50hz and it's national and nice and good and clean, and yes it will kill you.

Billl · Post by **Billl** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:53 am

davd_bob wrote:When you say the 2gb is your system drive...you don't mean your os is loading and working off that pathetic slow drive when you have those really fast 120gifs?

WOW Kuun, looks like we have nearly a 1TB winner here.

Actually with Hard drive prices today, it's not all that hard to do anymore. I just added up my total and I have 650 GB myself spread over 7 machines.

Billl

24seven · Post by **24seven** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:51 am

Indeed it is not hard to hit the 1TB mark these days.

I'm not far off with my file server, which is has 860GB at the moment. So one more drive would see me there. But I have no need for any more storage at the moment.

Oh and im a David as well.